**Please Delete my prior post in the wineq2lite section as it is a double post, unfortunately I cannot delete or edit it myself**
Anyone with a 64bit OS feel free to comment.
Im nearing the time to completely replace one of my computers and am sick of running out of memory on EQ1. I want to upgrade to XP 64 to open up more memory but Ive been advised against it by EVERYONE, being told that drivers are sketchy at best and software doesnt work properly. (Ive already been told by everyone that I dont need that much memory, bla bla bla, but this comp would be used only for EQ1, MS Office, and Internet only). And yes, this post is related to yesterdays previous post regarding boxing more accounts on 1 computer...
Things I wont do: buy new software... no new office (i have office xp), no new norton system works, etc. I really want to be able to run the same software as I am now (currently using xp home 32 bit).
Can a 64 bit system run 32 bit software? Are drivers that bad? Im not ready to try Vista at all unless someone provides me considerable compelling evidence I should (I know a bit about it already).
Thanks in advance for the advice.
Ron
I really need advise about upgrading to 64 bit OS please
Moderators: Lavish Software Team, Moderators
Ask yourself this...
Are you really going to be running enough memory to justify a 64 bit OS?
Think of the following things:
How long will it take to upgrade.
How long it will take to find drivers (not all devices have 64 bit drivers).
How long it will take to debug and get to optimum running.
If you want to spend that time, then its worth it.
And don't forget this...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx
XP lifecycle starts to dwindle in January 2008. When licenses start getting cut back, support follows.
As for running Vista, I don't know what all the crying is about. It is a decent OS. I remember that alot of the things being said now, were said about XP when it hit the streets (read: public beta).
Yeah, sure it runs craptastically on a weak system, but as a gamer, my crap hits pretty hard... Its no issue.
If you do a major overhaul, make sure it is worth it. If you do choose to go the 64 bit path, pick a good OS, and make sure it will do what you want it to do.
I have had no trouble from my 64 bit Vista install, but then I had the luxury of being able to hunt and peck through my MSDN to try and figure what I wanted...
Hope that helps some...
V.
Are you really going to be running enough memory to justify a 64 bit OS?
Think of the following things:
How long will it take to upgrade.
How long it will take to find drivers (not all devices have 64 bit drivers).
How long it will take to debug and get to optimum running.
If you want to spend that time, then its worth it.
And don't forget this...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx
XP lifecycle starts to dwindle in January 2008. When licenses start getting cut back, support follows.
As for running Vista, I don't know what all the crying is about. It is a decent OS. I remember that alot of the things being said now, were said about XP when it hit the streets (read: public beta).
Yeah, sure it runs craptastically on a weak system, but as a gamer, my crap hits pretty hard... Its no issue.
If you do a major overhaul, make sure it is worth it. If you do choose to go the 64 bit path, pick a good OS, and make sure it will do what you want it to do.
I have had no trouble from my 64 bit Vista install, but then I had the luxury of being able to hunt and peck through my MSDN to try and figure what I wanted...
Hope that helps some...
V.
Vengeance, thanks for your input (hopefully the first of more).
Can you address the 32 bit software compatibility question I had, will my current software run on a 64 bit OS, either vista or xp?
With respect to drivers, I use onboard sound and onboard network, and only have an 8800 GTX card (thats the only card plugged into my computer),,,as you have vista 64, are u using an nVidia card and how are its drivers? Are you referring to buggy wireless mouse/kb drivers?
When you say debug and optimum running, can you elaborate a bit? I would assume the OS would work fine (maybe not vista as its still new), so are you referring to software bugs or hardware bugs?
With respect to life expectancy, I only expect 3 years from my computer before I replace them (in general). So im not terribly concerned if XP 64 ends it support in 5 years...
If you can elaborate, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ron
Can you address the 32 bit software compatibility question I had, will my current software run on a 64 bit OS, either vista or xp?
With respect to drivers, I use onboard sound and onboard network, and only have an 8800 GTX card (thats the only card plugged into my computer),,,as you have vista 64, are u using an nVidia card and how are its drivers? Are you referring to buggy wireless mouse/kb drivers?
When you say debug and optimum running, can you elaborate a bit? I would assume the OS would work fine (maybe not vista as its still new), so are you referring to software bugs or hardware bugs?
With respect to life expectancy, I only expect 3 years from my computer before I replace them (in general). So im not terribly concerned if XP 64 ends it support in 5 years...
If you can elaborate, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ron
Would be glad to elaborate...
"Can you address the 32 bit software compatibility question I had, will my current software run on a 64 bit OS, either vista or xp?"
With the new 64-bit OSs that are out, there is not a huge amount of incompatibility with 32 bit programs. Have I run them all? No. In the ones I have run tho, I have found no issues (and I run a ton of applications).
"With respect to drivers, I use onboard sound and onboard network, and only have an 8800 GTX card (thats the only card plugged into my computer),,,as you have vista 64, are u using an nVidia card and how are its drivers? Are you referring to buggy wireless mouse/kb drivers?"
In regards to drivers, you need to look deeper than just your "surface" periperals (video, sound ect...). There are a ton of other drivers that lay below the surface. Chipsets, bus controllers, tons of other things that are embedded into your motherboard that just magically "work" when you install an OS. You will want to check to see if your motherboard has 64 bit drivers. If you built your current rig, then you know what is there. Hit the manufacturer and see if they have support for a 64 bit OS.
As for my 64-bit rig, it runs on an evga mobo (nvidia 590 based) with nvidia 8600 gts cards in SLI, 4 gig of memory, and an athlon 6000+. It runs like a champ. I have all my games running full bore, with no problems. Nvidia is getting things right finally, but as I said, this machine is built for power...
As for any OS, Vista is still new. It will be until the first service pack. That is the microsoft way. Regardless of if it is an Office application, BizTalk, SharePoint, Visual Studio, VSS, whatever, it is always rough or buggy until the first pack.
"When you say debug and optimum running, can you elaborate a bit? I would assume the OS would work fine (maybe not vista as its still new), so are you referring to software bugs or hardware bugs? "
What I mean here is, if you are looking for "the best" performance you can get out of your rig, you don't settle for the OS out of the box. There is always things to tweak, turn off, change settings ect. Vista works fine. XP works fine. You just need to know in both which things you need to kill so they don't interfere. With XP, you may not have realized some of the things you were doing, and since it is older, and more mature, more of those things have been done for you. With Vista, there are some things that have to go away, just like XP before SP 1 and SP 2 (SP 3 is irrelevant when it hits, it only adds more licensing for Professional)...
"With respect to life expectancy, I only expect 3 years from my computer before I replace them (in general). So im not terribly concerned if XP 64 ends it support in 5 years..."
The thing to pay attention to here is the license availability, not the termination date. As we all know, microsoft does not write all the drivers and apps that run on the OS. As the amount of licenses begins to draw down, the companies that do create these applications will slowly stop supporting them for XP way before MS makes the EOL cutoff. MS may still be pushig critical patches for security (but not functionality, after all, they do want you to buy Vista), but they won't be patching much else. These 3rd party compaines will start to shift to Vista code, and XP code will be lost behind, especially with how much more in depth the Vista drivers need to be. As new devices come out, XP support will dry up, or at least not be as "premium" as paying customers would expect. Beginning of next year, they start cutting back on the licenses they issue. Beginning of 2009, they cut even further. Somewhere in the middle, 3rd party support will start to dry up. Will there be some support? Sure, but everyone will be starting to move on.
Hope this clears some things up for you.
Like I said, figure out what you need, and what you are willing to invest in it, and find the medium. If you decide to go to XP 64, cool, just plan your upgrade. Make sure you have ALL your drivers before you go offline and /fdisk your HDD. Just because the microsoft principle of "IJW" ("it just works") that is applied over their development suites worked for your rig and 32-bit XP, it may not be so with XP 64. Extra planning (and a good image) can be a time saver...
V.
"Can you address the 32 bit software compatibility question I had, will my current software run on a 64 bit OS, either vista or xp?"
With the new 64-bit OSs that are out, there is not a huge amount of incompatibility with 32 bit programs. Have I run them all? No. In the ones I have run tho, I have found no issues (and I run a ton of applications).
"With respect to drivers, I use onboard sound and onboard network, and only have an 8800 GTX card (thats the only card plugged into my computer),,,as you have vista 64, are u using an nVidia card and how are its drivers? Are you referring to buggy wireless mouse/kb drivers?"
In regards to drivers, you need to look deeper than just your "surface" periperals (video, sound ect...). There are a ton of other drivers that lay below the surface. Chipsets, bus controllers, tons of other things that are embedded into your motherboard that just magically "work" when you install an OS. You will want to check to see if your motherboard has 64 bit drivers. If you built your current rig, then you know what is there. Hit the manufacturer and see if they have support for a 64 bit OS.
As for my 64-bit rig, it runs on an evga mobo (nvidia 590 based) with nvidia 8600 gts cards in SLI, 4 gig of memory, and an athlon 6000+. It runs like a champ. I have all my games running full bore, with no problems. Nvidia is getting things right finally, but as I said, this machine is built for power...
As for any OS, Vista is still new. It will be until the first service pack. That is the microsoft way. Regardless of if it is an Office application, BizTalk, SharePoint, Visual Studio, VSS, whatever, it is always rough or buggy until the first pack.
"When you say debug and optimum running, can you elaborate a bit? I would assume the OS would work fine (maybe not vista as its still new), so are you referring to software bugs or hardware bugs? "
What I mean here is, if you are looking for "the best" performance you can get out of your rig, you don't settle for the OS out of the box. There is always things to tweak, turn off, change settings ect. Vista works fine. XP works fine. You just need to know in both which things you need to kill so they don't interfere. With XP, you may not have realized some of the things you were doing, and since it is older, and more mature, more of those things have been done for you. With Vista, there are some things that have to go away, just like XP before SP 1 and SP 2 (SP 3 is irrelevant when it hits, it only adds more licensing for Professional)...
"With respect to life expectancy, I only expect 3 years from my computer before I replace them (in general). So im not terribly concerned if XP 64 ends it support in 5 years..."
The thing to pay attention to here is the license availability, not the termination date. As we all know, microsoft does not write all the drivers and apps that run on the OS. As the amount of licenses begins to draw down, the companies that do create these applications will slowly stop supporting them for XP way before MS makes the EOL cutoff. MS may still be pushig critical patches for security (but not functionality, after all, they do want you to buy Vista), but they won't be patching much else. These 3rd party compaines will start to shift to Vista code, and XP code will be lost behind, especially with how much more in depth the Vista drivers need to be. As new devices come out, XP support will dry up, or at least not be as "premium" as paying customers would expect. Beginning of next year, they start cutting back on the licenses they issue. Beginning of 2009, they cut even further. Somewhere in the middle, 3rd party support will start to dry up. Will there be some support? Sure, but everyone will be starting to move on.
Hope this clears some things up for you.
Like I said, figure out what you need, and what you are willing to invest in it, and find the medium. If you decide to go to XP 64, cool, just plan your upgrade. Make sure you have ALL your drivers before you go offline and /fdisk your HDD. Just because the microsoft principle of "IJW" ("it just works") that is applied over their development suites worked for your rig and 32-bit XP, it may not be so with XP 64. Extra planning (and a good image) can be a time saver...
V.
Vengeance, thank so much for your in depth and point by point help. Your personal experience certainly dispells many of the rumors and myths that are circulating about 64 bit OSs.
Ive run the Vista compatibility and XP compatibility programs and it appears that my network, kb, mouse, and printers will continue to work. The computer itself will be purchased directly from Velocity Micro (Ive had excellent experience with them over the past 3 years and their customer support is top notch). As they test and burn in the system, I would assume that I would get the stable drivers that you mentioned, that I had not considered.
Im glad to see that EQ runs well on your rig - and Im feeling so much more confident at getting a 64 bit OS, especially since its main purpose is to play EQ1 (Im not afraid to admit it).
I have 1 last question if you can answer it for me. It crept up during a chat with a friend. Does running a 32 bit program on a 64 bit OS use more memory??? She told me to expect to pay a heavy memory penalty (she said nearly double),,,and if Im getting a new computer with a 64 bit OS to specifically box more EQ1, but im gonna lose 1/2 my memory, then its obviously not worth it.
Do you know how much memory you are using to run a full instance of EQ1 (since u have the pro version) and how much memory it takes to load up and run multiple boxes? I woud assume that since you have 6 GB of RAM you probably box more than 3 accounts. Ive noticed that my computer uses 70 MB of video ram and 720 MB of system ram per instance (if this helps you understand my question).
You rock Vengeance, and I truly appreciate your time, knowledge, and energy in answering my questions and assisting me.
Ron
Ive run the Vista compatibility and XP compatibility programs and it appears that my network, kb, mouse, and printers will continue to work. The computer itself will be purchased directly from Velocity Micro (Ive had excellent experience with them over the past 3 years and their customer support is top notch). As they test and burn in the system, I would assume that I would get the stable drivers that you mentioned, that I had not considered.
Im glad to see that EQ runs well on your rig - and Im feeling so much more confident at getting a 64 bit OS, especially since its main purpose is to play EQ1 (Im not afraid to admit it).
I have 1 last question if you can answer it for me. It crept up during a chat with a friend. Does running a 32 bit program on a 64 bit OS use more memory??? She told me to expect to pay a heavy memory penalty (she said nearly double),,,and if Im getting a new computer with a 64 bit OS to specifically box more EQ1, but im gonna lose 1/2 my memory, then its obviously not worth it.
Do you know how much memory you are using to run a full instance of EQ1 (since u have the pro version) and how much memory it takes to load up and run multiple boxes? I woud assume that since you have 6 GB of RAM you probably box more than 3 accounts. Ive noticed that my computer uses 70 MB of video ram and 720 MB of system ram per instance (if this helps you understand my question).
You rock Vengeance, and I truly appreciate your time, knowledge, and energy in answering my questions and assisting me.
Ron
"I have 1 last question if you can answer it for me. It crept up during a chat with a friend. Does running a 32 bit program on a 64 bit OS use more memory??? She told me to expect to pay a heavy memory penalty (she said nearly double),,,and if Im getting a new computer with a 64 bit OS to specifically box more EQ1, but im gonna lose 1/2 my memory, then its obviously not worth it."
There is no increased memory useage between a 64-bit OS and a 32-bit OS. One of the primary differences between the two is that the actual memory addressing size is different...
There is no penalty for running a 32 bit app on a 64 bit system. You are not emulating anything. If you run an application such as VM, where you are doing true emulation, then your memory footprint doubles. These apps (32 bit)run without emulation on a 64 bit system. Its really just a matter of memory addressing.
As for what runs EQ1 good (btw, that is my pet game as well), you would be suprised. If you configure right, and trim EQ settings, you can 4 box with good performance on 2GB of memory. I did that for a long time.
With 4GB of memory going, I can actually run with most of the "bells and whistles" on.
Hope I got to all your questions!
V.
There is no increased memory useage between a 64-bit OS and a 32-bit OS. One of the primary differences between the two is that the actual memory addressing size is different...
There is no penalty for running a 32 bit app on a 64 bit system. You are not emulating anything. If you run an application such as VM, where you are doing true emulation, then your memory footprint doubles. These apps (32 bit)run without emulation on a 64 bit system. Its really just a matter of memory addressing.
As for what runs EQ1 good (btw, that is my pet game as well), you would be suprised. If you configure right, and trim EQ settings, you can 4 box with good performance on 2GB of memory. I did that for a long time.
With 4GB of memory going, I can actually run with most of the "bells and whistles" on.
Hope I got to all your questions!
V.
Awesome Vengeance! I am SO glad there is NO RAM penalty for running a 32bit program on a 64bit OS. 
You are now the 5th person who said they can 4 box on 2 GB of memory. I would love to 4 box on my 3 GB of memory.
What can I trim to do this
I have posted this question over and over and not gotten any answers. Its as tho this is super secret... Look up 5 posts from this one and you will see my most recent request with my futile attempts to reduce the EQ1 footprint (with results). Here is the link:
http://www.lavishsoft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3521
If you care to advise me on how you managed to box 4 with lesser (Im assuming) specs I would be most grateful. What were your settings in game, in OS, Global Options, etc.
Thanks again,
Ron
You are now the 5th person who said they can 4 box on 2 GB of memory. I would love to 4 box on my 3 GB of memory.
What can I trim to do this
I have posted this question over and over and not gotten any answers. Its as tho this is super secret... Look up 5 posts from this one and you will see my most recent request with my futile attempts to reduce the EQ1 footprint (with results). Here is the link:http://www.lavishsoft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3521
If you care to advise me on how you managed to box 4 with lesser (Im assuming) specs I would be most grateful. What were your settings in game, in OS, Global Options, etc.
Thanks again,
Ron
Its good to see others chime in with their good experiences here...
When you ask for opinions on new operating systems, usually you get the traditional "flame-fest" of if you are not running linux, you are a noob... Or if you don't run XP, you SuXXors!!
As a professional software engineer and highly addicted gamer, I use windows, linux, and a multitude of of software packages, so I usually speak from a "fairly" unbiased position. What my experiences have taught me, just like picking a language to write a new application in, there is always a right OS or "tool" for what you want to do.
Just decompose your requirements, and begin your build
Good luck with your install however you choose to go! The more you learn about it, the more exciting it can be (especially when things go right).
V.
When you ask for opinions on new operating systems, usually you get the traditional "flame-fest" of if you are not running linux, you are a noob... Or if you don't run XP, you SuXXors!!
As a professional software engineer and highly addicted gamer, I use windows, linux, and a multitude of of software packages, so I usually speak from a "fairly" unbiased position. What my experiences have taught me, just like picking a language to write a new application in, there is always a right OS or "tool" for what you want to do.
Just decompose your requirements, and begin your build
Good luck with your install however you choose to go! The more you learn about it, the more exciting it can be (especially when things go right).
V.
Almost forgot to respond to your previous question about tuning...
Here is what I usually do:
Windows:
Turn off unncessary applications (remove them from startup)
Disable unnecessary services (tons of online refs for tuning this area)
Make sure you are running ALL current drivers for your motherboard. One thing that gets changed frequently in a mobo driver is optimization for performance.
Make sure your AV software is running as it should.
Make sure any firewalls are not slowing you down (hardware or software. If it is, you way want to disable it while playing (unless using some other "software" that needs access blocked).
Make sure your BIOS is current, same reason as above.
Make sure your memory is getting the proper voltage. This may sound trivial, but if your voltage is low, and the banks are undercharged, they respond slower, causing less performance. Sometimes the BIOS does not set this properly.
Same as above for a processor. Check the manufacturers website for specs.
Making sure your hardware is tuned is huge. If it isn't, your performance will struggle.
Game configuration.
First, start with everything turned off or to its lowest settings, and start to work up. When you get to a point where you like the performance and the visuals or feel, then you are good to go.
****CAVEATS, NOTES, DISCLAMERS****
Do not change anything in your BIOS unless you know how to reset it to default settings. This is usually done by a jumper, or by removing a battery.
DO NOT change voltage in large increments. You will release the magic black smoke... And things will not work any longer.
If the processor voltage is 1.5, chances are if you bump it to 5.5, it will fry. You will be sad.
DO your homework! Some components clock / overvolt better than others.
And most importantly....
LEARN SOMETHING AND DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHARE IT!
Guud Luck! (BTW, not responsible for typos, its been a long day
)
V.
Here is what I usually do:
Windows:
Turn off unncessary applications (remove them from startup)
Disable unnecessary services (tons of online refs for tuning this area)
Make sure you are running ALL current drivers for your motherboard. One thing that gets changed frequently in a mobo driver is optimization for performance.
Make sure your AV software is running as it should.
Make sure any firewalls are not slowing you down (hardware or software. If it is, you way want to disable it while playing (unless using some other "software" that needs access blocked).
Make sure your BIOS is current, same reason as above.
Make sure your memory is getting the proper voltage. This may sound trivial, but if your voltage is low, and the banks are undercharged, they respond slower, causing less performance. Sometimes the BIOS does not set this properly.
Same as above for a processor. Check the manufacturers website for specs.
Making sure your hardware is tuned is huge. If it isn't, your performance will struggle.
Game configuration.
First, start with everything turned off or to its lowest settings, and start to work up. When you get to a point where you like the performance and the visuals or feel, then you are good to go.
****CAVEATS, NOTES, DISCLAMERS****
Do not change anything in your BIOS unless you know how to reset it to default settings. This is usually done by a jumper, or by removing a battery.
DO NOT change voltage in large increments. You will release the magic black smoke... And things will not work any longer.
If the processor voltage is 1.5, chances are if you bump it to 5.5, it will fry. You will be sad.
DO your homework! Some components clock / overvolt better than others.
And most importantly....
LEARN SOMETHING AND DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHARE IT!
Guud Luck! (BTW, not responsible for typos, its been a long day
)V.
Thanks Vengeance,
This is fantastic advise. Fortunately for me, these options allow me to 3 box with maxxed settings. (Oops, no overclocking for me, I like my stuff to work the next day cause I break stuff with the slightest of ease
Im just gonna have to suck it up and turn down the visual options. Old models here I come (its gonna be ugly to say the least).
Ah, I found a 120 day trial of Xp Pro 64, and as soon as my new HDD comes (im not doing anything that will hose my current files), Ima give it a run (Ill steal 1 GB of RAM from my other computer so see how much it helps).
Ill get back to you all after Im up and running. Also, I located a way to convert ALL Vista versions to 64 bit for free via the microsoft website, so people should know they dont need to buy the Ultimate to get the 64 bit environment.
This is fantastic advise. Fortunately for me, these options allow me to 3 box with maxxed settings. (Oops, no overclocking for me, I like my stuff to work the next day cause I break stuff with the slightest of ease
Im just gonna have to suck it up and turn down the visual options. Old models here I come (its gonna be ugly to say the least).
Ah, I found a 120 day trial of Xp Pro 64, and as soon as my new HDD comes (im not doing anything that will hose my current files), Ima give it a run (Ill steal 1 GB of RAM from my other computer so see how much it helps).
Ill get back to you all after Im up and running. Also, I located a way to convert ALL Vista versions to 64 bit for free via the microsoft website, so people should know they dont need to buy the Ultimate to get the 64 bit environment.